@obx - Except it isn't a Christian nation at all and you are making my case for me regarding indoctrination as evidenced by that fact that you are absolutely wrong about the people that founded this country.

You are also technically wrong about my prejudice. I am not prejudiced against Christians, I am prejudiced against all religion period. Christians aren't special in that.

I concede in that what are today, is far from a Christian nation. However, I will not concede that this nation was founded by Christians. Look at History. The first people to come here and settle where Christians escaping persicution. Look at the religions of our Founding Fathers, most if not all practiced Christinaity. Even in the mid-1800s, the industrial revolution was driven by people who were Christians.

Although this nation never used the Bible to craft our laws, we never mandated Christianity and/or banned any other forms of religion, does not mean this nation wasn't founded/settled by Christians, or Christian values.

I am willing to see examples of why you feel I am wrong about our founding fathers.

BTW - The Christian prejudice comment was more of a generality to the "Anti-Christian" who demands nativity scences be taking down on public roads type of people. I don't know you well enough to pass that kind of judgment.

I never said the country wasn't founded by Christians, that would be historically inaccurate. I said it wasn't founded upon Christianity, which IS historically accurate. Surely you understand the difference.

Our founders believed, and rightfully so, than religion in government in a recipe for disaster and is in direct opposition to real freedom.

Nope. The first colonists were merchants looking to make a buck.

The Puritans came after and the Puritans were tyrants that did not end up founding the nation. Their "Mayflower Compact" view of theocratic governance was widely reject by the people that actually designed our government.

 

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."


"State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. "


"Thirteen governments of the original states thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."


"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States."


"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated.


"Every interference of the civil power in regulating opinion, is an impious attempt to take the business of the Deity out of his own hands; and every preference given to any religious denomination, is so far slavery and bigotry."


"I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"


"God has appointed two kinds of government in the world, which are distinct in their nature, and ought never to be confounded together; one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government."


"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."


"I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church - an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments - but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government"


"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear."


"In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind."


"which they endure in the old world, of greater personal independence and consequence, under the operation of a more equal government, and of what is far more precious than mere religious toleration - a perfect equality of religious privileges"


"Every new and successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance."


"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."


"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it's a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."


"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."


"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual."


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."




Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Madison, Webster, Sherman, Paine, King, Mason among those quoted above. Just a few examples of where our founding fathers stood and what they believed.

Some were agnostic, some were atheist, and most were some flavor of Christian ...but they all agreed that Religion has no place in Government, period.

BTW - The Christian prejudice comment was more of a generality to the "Anti-Christian" who demands nativity scences be taking down on public roads type of people. I don't know you well enough to pass that kind of judgment.

No one can or should be forced to take them down living or owning property on on public roads. What people rightly object to is having them on government property. Maybe that's traditional, but given our modern socieity of many religions it is an establishment of religion. If a small town had giant menorah on their city hall lawn that might not go over so well either.

Exactly. Nativity scenes have no place on government property. Quick to defend a Christian symbol on government property and equally as quick to denounce the symbol of any other religion is hypocrisy. When that is supported by government, then that is just one example of many where religion has over stepped its bounds.

What self rightgeos assholes you guys must be to think that that the local town hall shouldn't  have a nativity scene on their government grounds. Seriously, what is wrong with you to think thats a bad thing? If the populace of your town is primary Christian, why should they bend to your religion of Atheism.

Yes, Atheism is a relgion. You having faith that a God does not exist is no different than someone having faith that one does. In the end, both don't really know.

BTW - Your panties must really get in a bunch during the annaul lighting of the Whitehouse Christmas Tree

Can't have freedom of religion without freedom from government religion. That is why there is an establishment clause in amendment 1 to the constitution.

Before you say "Congress shall make no law..." and "city council is not Congress". Equal protection under the law secured by later amendment to the constitution means that the Bill of Rights restricts the town council right along with the feds.

Nativity scenes are put on the courthouse lawns for a very declarative purpose and that generally trips over establishment prohibition no different from Roy Moore putting a huge 10C monument in the Alabama Courthouse rotunda. I'm sure the town has ample lawns and church fronts where a nativity can be displayed.

 

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Maybe if opiodx and the violent racist doltblight types who spout a perverted view of religiosity they try to claim as christian, (or any other form of religiosity)
studied the history of the early united states, they might understand why the brilliant statesmen (aka founding fathers) who formulated our form of government did what they did.
Which brand of "christianity" are the dumshit religious right nazis referring to? Some states were catholic. Some were some form of "protestant".
But, which form of catholic: reformist, orthodox, eastern orthodox, roman? Irish, british?
How about protestants: puritan, calvinists, baptists, southern baptists, quaker, amish, methodists, episcopalian, lutheran. And invariably some ultrafundamentalist radical versions of all them.
Wars and battles were fought between neighboring states over this. (all over europe!) God help you if you crossed the wrong county line in early america. Lynchings, burnings, murders were quite common. Each faction thought they, and they alone, had the lord's true answer.
So. trying to figure how to deal with this god forsaken mess and its corrupting influences already ahold of america:
The founders came up with the utterly brilliant doctrine of separation of church and state. Period

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It's a democratic hoax

Complete utter BS. Its freedom from religion that you, miker, and the rest of the Aethists cry for. Your religion (or lack thereof) does not make it OK to prevent others from celebrating theirs.

Seperation of Church and State was meant to keep the State from creating/enforcing laws based on religion. If the State did, it would have direct impact on your life, and force you to do things you do not believe.

That is completely different than a local goverment, made up of local people, from celebrating/displaying religous items. That does not impact your life, or force you to do anything. Totally different.

If the local populace was Muslim, and their City Hall, which consisted of mostly Muslims wanted to display a Muslim symbol during a Muslim Holiday. I don't care. The irony is, either would most of you. Lets be real here, you only care if its a Christian symbol.

Bunch of Christian-phobes.......

So when a government allows a Christian nativity scene, but does not allow another religion to display there's what exactly is that then?

That is the problem with people like you and the infection that has spread across this country through indoctrination. You think YOUR belief is the only one that matters. It is ignorant, arrogant, and narcissistic.

I don't give a crap what religion you celebrate. I don't give a crap about what you put in your yard to celebrate it. What I do care about it one religious belief being given preferential treatment over other religious beliefs by the government because it goes against everything this country was founded upon.

Asking for all religious view to be treated equally is not preventing you from celebrating yours. Asking that your religious beliefs not take away from someone else's right to celebrate theirs is not either.

In God We Trust - On currency and license plates. It does not belong there.

One nation under God - This does not belong on the pledge either and wasn't originally there to begin with.

Prayer in public school? - Absofuckinglutely not. How about we have your children pray to Allah? Would you like that? Didn't think so.

Happened back home when I was kid. The Jews got "waddage". Eventually the city let them install a Menora.

 

Of course people can pray in school. Government school can't make the kids pray though.

 

 

 

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edit: double post

 

 

Freedom from government religion. The government part is key.

The freedom to practice religion enshrined as a right in the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution does not extend to the government.

People can celebrate their religion just fine without defacto establishment.

 

 

I don't believe you.

You people don't even want to allow Muslims to practice religion on private property. I refer you to Murfreesboro Tennessee for one of many examples.

 

 

Find us one real example to demonstrate the point.

 

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I think we (or I) am confusing what is meant by "Christian Nation"

I am refering to the culture, the religion of the people who settled/founded this nation. The "heros", if you will (Grant, Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, etc were all if not most Christian)

You are refering to law/government. As I said, just because we don't have laws bound to the Christian faith, doesn't mean we weren't a Christian nation.

In fact, that was the beauty of the intelligence of our founding fathers. Although they themselves were Christian, they knew it was not their place (mans place) to dictate what another man should believe. Still does not negate the fact that this nation was founded by Christians, and the people who governed/drove the ecomomics were mostly Christian. Thus, in my mind, this country is/was a Christian nation. Or, a nation built by Christians.