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Topic Title: Will the damage ever be undone
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Created On: 04/19/2017 04:56 AM
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 04/19/2017 04:56 AM
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miker

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Will the damage of infusing religion into our government and policy ever be undone? With my understanding of our founding fathers, what they represented, and the people of the time, what has happened in this country in the 2nd half of its history spits in the very face of the men that provided the wonderful (but oft bastardized) framework for which this nation is built upon.

It has gone on for so long that entire generations of people have grown up believing that the United States is a Christian nation, that the Pledge is supposed to say 'one nation under God', and that 'In God We Trust' has always been prevalent. In fact, people are so indoctrinated into this that they consistently use one misplaced example to support another in arguments when you try to point out that the US is in fact absolutely NOT a Christian nation.

The reality is that the US is getting slowly better on this front, but I do not believe the illness will ever be completely cured as it has seeped way too deep into every crack. The unfortunate truth is that this infusion of religion has influenced policy that has held back on medical and scientific advances, climate, assisted in entering us into conflicts, and has led us down a patch of such willful and blinding ignorance that it has quite literally resulted in millions of lives being needlessly loss either directly or indirectly from the trickle down.

Here is some back ground reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

Red Scare

The Pledge


It is worthy of note that the current holder of the best country to live in for the entire world has a population where the majority is Atheist and Agnostic.



Edited: 04/19/2017 at 05:14 AM by miker
 04/19/2017 05:00 AM
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WG

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pledge link is broken, usual secure vs non secure link issue..

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us".

Justice Robert H. Jackson, writing for the 6 to 3 majority in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette which ruled that public school students are not required to say the Pledge.

-------------------------
"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill
 04/19/2017 05:08 AM
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StirfryMcflurry

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It's too Wednesday to try an read all that mess. Give us the RD version, thanx.

 04/19/2017 05:14 AM
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miker

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Originally posted by: WG
pledge link is broken, usual secure vs non secure link issue..


Fixed

 04/19/2017 05:17 AM
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miker

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Originally posted by: WG

pledge link is broken, usual secure vs non secure link issue..



"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us".



Justice Robert H. Jackson, writing for the 6 to 3 majority in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette which ruled that public school students are not required to say the Pledge.



Not really on topic, though I did bring up the pledge. This is about infusion of religion in our government and policy, not about whether or not the pledge should be required in schools.
 04/19/2017 05:52 AM
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WG

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Actually very on target.

Public schools. Indoctrination.

Requiring kids to say a pledge that includes "under god" is certainly an "infusion of religion in our government".
Even though the court long ago ruled that kids can't be required to say it, they still effectively are.

-------------------------
"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill
 04/19/2017 06:01 AM
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miker

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Ok, that makes more sense.
 04/19/2017 06:22 AM
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obx2

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Religion and culture are highly intertwined. And by extension, so is Government.

This nation was founded by Christians. Not Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, or any other form. Our founding fathers where Christian. The first immigrants that settled here were Christian. The American Culture in its inception was a Christian culture.

For example, Christmas is a nationally recognized holiday, where the government offices are closed (ie, we officially recognize it). Are there national holidays pertaining to important dates in other religions.....no.

Not sure what you quantify as "damage" that needs to be undone, but to sit here and say this nation wasn't founded as a Christian nation, is to completly ignore the facts and history, and interject your own perverted version as a means to satisfy your own prejudice against the Christian religion.



Edited: 04/19/2017 at 06:33 AM by obx2
 04/19/2017 06:33 AM
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SuperTeeBird

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I'm not religious and not that anti-religious except when it comes to fundamentalism and the obfuscation of rational thought in any other way.

I think it can be very difficult for some to deal with the expansive and random nature of reality without a simple framework. So be it, but I submit that struggling through getting familiar with our lack of control and knowledge can be liberating.

 04/19/2017 06:34 AM
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miker

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@obx - Except it isn't a Christian nation at all and you are making my case for me regarding indoctrination as evidenced by that fact that you are absolutely wrong about the people that founded this country.

You are also technically wrong about my prejudice. I am not prejudiced against Christians, I am prejudiced against all religion period. Christians aren't special in that.
 04/19/2017 06:38 AM
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obx2

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Originally posted by: SuperTeeBird ...anti-religious except when it comes to fundamentalism and the obfuscation of rational thought in any other way.

I agree, and so did our Founding Fathers.

 04/19/2017 06:48 AM
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obx2

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Originally posted by: miker @obx - Except it isn't a Christian nation at all and you are making my case for me regarding indoctrination as evidenced by that fact that you are absolutely wrong about the people that founded this country. You are also technically wrong about my prejudice. I am not prejudiced against Christians, I am prejudiced against all religion period. Christians aren't special in that.

I concede in that what are today, is far from a Christian nation. However, I will not concede that this nation was founded by Christians. Look at History. The first people to come here and settle where Christians escaping persicution. Look at the religions of our Founding Fathers, most if not all practiced Christinaity. Even in the mid-1800s, the industrial revolution was driven by people who were Christians.

Although this nation never used the Bible to craft our laws, we never mandated Christianity and/or banned any other forms of religion, does not mean this nation wasn't founded/settled by Christians, or Christian values.

I am willing to see examples of why you feel I am wrong about our founding fathers.

BTW - The Christian prejudice comment was more of a generality to the "Anti-Christian" who demands nativity scences be taking down on public roads type of people. I don't know you well enough to pass that kind of judgment.

 04/19/2017 06:59 AM
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SuperTeeBird

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Originally posted by: obx2
Originally posted by: SuperTeeBird ...anti-religious except when it comes to fundamentalism and the obfuscation of rational thought in any other way.

 

 

I agree, and so did our Founding Fathers.

 

I agree they were rational by the standards of their day, but I think they were focused on freedom of thought (and in their person, etc), be that fundamentalist or not. Of course, "fundamentalism" if it existed was quite different at the time; I'm sure there were some with extreme views.

 04/19/2017 07:00 AM
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miker

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"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."


"State churches that use government power to support themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of the church tends to make the clergy unresponsive to the people and leads to corruption within religion. Erecting the "wall of separation between church and state," therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society. "


"Thirteen governments of the original states thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is error alone that needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."


"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States."


"Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by a difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought to be deprecated.


"Every interference of the civil power in regulating opinion, is an impious attempt to take the business of the Deity out of his own hands; and every preference given to any religious denomination, is so far slavery and bigotry."


"I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"


"God has appointed two kinds of government in the world, which are distinct in their nature, and ought never to be confounded together; one of which is called civil, the other ecclesiastical government."


"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law."


"I never liked the Hierarchy of the Church - an equality in the teacher of Religion, and a dependence on the people, are republican sentiments - but if the Clergy combine, they will have their influence on Government"


"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear."


"In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind."


"which they endure in the old world, of greater personal independence and consequence, under the operation of a more equal government, and of what is far more precious than mere religious toleration - a perfect equality of religious privileges"


"Every new and successful example of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance."


"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."


"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obligated to call for help of the civil power, it's a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."


"Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."


"Because religious belief, or non-belief, is such an important part of every person's life, freedom of religion affects every individual."


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."




Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Madison, Webster, Sherman, Paine, King, Mason among those quoted above. Just a few examples of where our founding fathers stood and what they believed.

Some were agnostic, some were atheist, and most were some flavor of Christian ...but they all agreed that Religion has no place in Government, period.
 04/19/2017 07:02 AM
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miker

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Originally posted by: obx2



I concede in that what are today, is far from a Christian nation. However, I will not concede that this nation was founded by Christians.


I never said the country wasn't founded by Christians, that would be historically inaccurate. I said it wasn't founded upon Christianity, which IS historically accurate. Surely you understand the difference.

Our founders believed, and rightfully so, than religion in government in a recipe for disaster and is in direct opposition to real freedom.

 04/19/2017 07:04 AM
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WG

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Our nation was founded by mostly "Christian" white slaveholding men but explicitly defined n the constitution as NOT a "Christian" nation.

-------------------------
"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill
 04/19/2017 07:04 AM
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SuperTeeBird

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BTW - The Christian prejudice comment was more of a generality to the "Anti-Christian" who demands nativity scences be taking down on public roads type of people. I don't know you well enough to pass that kind of judgment.

No one can or should be forced to take them down living or owning property on on public roads. What people rightly object to is having them on government property. Maybe that's traditional, but given our modern socieity of many religions it is an establishment of religion. If a small town had giant menorah on their city hall lawn that might not go over so well either.

 04/19/2017 07:08 AM
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miker

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Originally posted by: SuperTeeBird

BTW - The Christian prejudice comment was more of a generality to the "Anti-Christian" who demands nativity scences be taking down on public roads type of people. I don't know you well enough to pass that kind of judgment.




No one can or should be forced to take them down living or owning property on on public roads. What people rightly object to is having them on government property. Maybe that's traditional, but given our modern socieity of many religions it is an establishment of religion. If a small town had giant menorah on their city hall lawn that might not go over so well either.




Exactly. Nativity scenes have no place on government property. Quick to defend a Christian symbol on government property and equally as quick to denounce the symbol of any other religion is hypocrisy. When that is supported by government, then that is just one example of many where religion has over stepped its bounds.
 04/19/2017 07:09 AM
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obx2

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I think we (or I) am confusing what is meant by "Christian Nation"

I am refering to the culture, the religion of the people who settled/founded this nation. The "heros", if you will (Grant, Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, etc were all if not most Christian)

You are refering to law/government. As I said, just because we don't have laws bound to the Christian faith, doesn't mean we weren't a Christian nation.

In fact, that was the beauty of the intelligence of our founding fathers. Although they themselves were Christian, they knew it was not their place (mans place) to dictate what another man should believe. Still does not negate the fact that this nation was founded by Christians, and the people who governed/drove the ecomomics were mostly Christian. Thus, in my mind, this country is/was a Christian nation. Or, a nation built by Christians.

 04/19/2017 07:15 AM
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miker

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All my statements have been in context of what I started the discussion with.

I don't think anyone would argue that Christianity has had the largest population in this country now or historically.
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