http://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism

"...For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior."

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

"I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society."

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

When done voluntarily, maybe. When forced by government, not so much -- it becomes a chore instead of a gift.

I would rather not be the beneficiary of someone else's coerced charity.

It has to be voluntary on the part of workers. But imagine capitalism is a casino, where the game was rigged, but the players had to play in order to survive. The capitalists are making money hand over fist. Will they ever "volunteer" to unrig the game?

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

So how much do you share?

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Romans 8;18-32 John 3;16-18

About 13% involuntarily via the IRS. Another couple percent voluntarily. We do need to improve our current socialism (military/VA, medicaid/care, social security) and I think we could do that fairly at the expense of those that have a bit more than others.

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add a signature since I'm here in profile anyway

ahhh who is to judge what is "a bit more than others", people should not be punished financially due to hard work, frugality, or even luck/inheritance.



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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

Who said anything about punishment? The progressive income tax already does this. And, closing tax loopholes that allow those who profess to have billions and yet also profess to pay no taxes should be a no brainer. We-the-taxpayers subsidize them? Punishment? You decide.

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add a signature since I'm here in profile anyway

pun·ish·ment
/?p?niSHm?nt/
noun
the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense.

I was relating the definition to the above idea, the increased tax is the penalty and the sole reason or "offense" is them having a bit more.

I am all for closing tax loopholes, that should always be the focus of effort, plus I am the Trollpanda LOL

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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

I am the beneficiary by virtue of the safer stronger and happier society the safety net brings. Don't mind paying for other socialist stuff like SS, medicare, medicaid, fire. police, defense....

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"The truth is incontrovertible.
malice may attack it,
ignorance may deride it,
but in the end,
there it is." -Sir Winston Churchill

Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. ...................................His SOCIAL Drives.... Which are by NATURE weaker..................By Nature the social drives are weaker because they do not contribute to his well being as much as the other drives of his makeup.................. You expect a man to set aside a million years of Natural drives and adhere to this one particular social construct that was created in the last generation or two............... NO you are wrong people DO NOT feel insecure, lonely and deprived of enjoyment of life through following their natural paths.................. They only feel this way when a society demands that they bend or break, and society forces the natural man to follow unnatural rules by adhering to an unnatural society that fosters a dependency upon itself...........The Priesthood in charge of Education and appointed by society fosters this class division and created this institutional value system that so conflicts with the nature of man that those embedded in this society do lead an unnatural existence deprived of enjoyment..................A man who defines his meaning in life by societal norms is always going to find life meaningless..........

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I don't think you could be further from the truth. Mankind (and throughout nature) we find that animals thrive when they cooperate and act in common. Self interest as a central personal ethic is self destructive in the end.
Cooperation and mutual aid is not a social "construct of the last generation or two" which is in conflict with "a million years of natural drives".

An organism's capacity for cooperation and mutual aid is a profound evolutionary advantage. It's not the lone wolf which survives, it's the pack.

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

Mankind (and throughout nature) we find that animals thrive when they cooperate and act in common. Self interest as a central personal ethic is self destructive in the end.............................BUT THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD SAYS:...For example, most of the major states of history owed their existence to conquest. The conquering peoples established themselves, legally and economically, as the privileged class of the conquered country. They seized for themselves a monopoly of the land ownership and appointed a priesthood from among their own ranks. The priests, in control of education, made the class division of society into a permanent institution and created a system of values by which the people were thenceforth, to a large extent unconsciously, guided in their social behavior."............................When people cooperated and conquered and established societies.....When people put others in charge of their childrens education and created a system that guided social behaviors........... These are not considered good things.....................The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence...................Some societies foster independence and interdependence among individuals............. Some societies foster dependence upon society to the exclusion of independence and interdependence...................THIS Society... this dependent generation, this offended generation that insists on subjecting and silencing all individual thought and action for the good of society is the generation deprived of enjoyment in life.......... a million years of survival is possible only with individuals working in mutual cooperation.................. but when society works against individuals it works against the natural forces that allowed it to survive those million years...

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Democratic (as opposed to authoritarian) socialism relies very much at it's core on participation and "direct democracy". Libertarian democratic socialism in particular strives to establish minimal centralized power, only that which is needed to coordinate at a high level the activities of independent cooperative bodies. It's not about fostering dependence at all on "society" or authority, rather, it's liberation of the individual and the achievement of true freedom. Cooperation is not dependence.

In late capitalist American society we hear a lot about freedom. But millions of Americans are not free. You are not free if you're one paycheck away from poverty. You're not free if you have to ration medicine, or can't afford to take a sick child to the doctor. You're not free if your capacity to live indoors and eat nutritious food is dependent upon the whims of investors and market fluctuation. Society, as it were, should consist of all of us working together to ensure we are all free of the threat to our basic physiologic and safety needs, so we can truly realize our potential.

We live under a system of artificial scarcity. We have the productive capacity for the basic needs of everyone to be met and then some. From there if you want riches and luxuries, enter markets and engage in non-exploitative commerce. If you're an artist, create your art. If you're a philosopher or teacher, then teach and lecture. If you just want to surf, then surf.



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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

I agree with the concepts but think the most productive way to get those results(FREEDOM AND SAFETY) is to get our current system to function better.( they way it is supposed to)
.......I doubt a complete overhaul would work without a prior complete collapse.

I believe under perfect circumstances there are plenty of great services out there, we need more of those and less of the bad ones aka we need to replace people and IMPROVE the system, not can-it.



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I troll 2L.com to be a better person in real life

Revolutionary change would be catastrophically expensive in terms of human life (and have you checked the price on guillotine blades lately?) but if progressive change with the current system is made impossible by the powerful wealthy elites (of both parties), then it may be inevitable.

I'm encouraged by the concept of "dual power" - where we build power for workers through both organizing and electoral actions, but also establish cooperative business models.

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“It is the heart of US policy to use fascism to preserve capitalism while claiming to be saving democracy from communism “ - Michael Parenti

Democratic (as opposed to authoritarian) socialism relies very much at it's core on participation and "direct democracy". Libertarian democratic socialism in particular strives to establish minimal centralized power...................Ok.... I see what you did there.........Lets recap.... the thread starts with the E-VILS of societies.... ALL societies....... They seize control, make a monopoly of power and money.... yada, yada, yada....... Then you say in the second panel...............BUT man is unhappy, can't possible be happy unless they are participating in a society.......BUT you didn't differentiate between a Democracy, a Monarchy, Communism, socialism, a Republic, or the other several hundred societies that have existed on the planet........................All societies are evil, they seize control, Mankind is unhappy without being in a society....... Right...........I called bullshit and NOW.......Not those societies, of course those societies are bad...............Now we are restating the argument and saying that your particular society, the Democratic Socialism one, not those other nasty socialisms, Your socialism is different........ Your Socialism will work, It depend upon, RELIES VERY MUCH UPON, Participation.............. So people have to what????? Be forced to participate?????...... AND if I remember correctly, they/ you want to CONTROL the supply and distribution of FOODs................YEAH... Your brand of Socialism is no different than any other totalitarian regime in history.............AND...... EVERY....... EVERY SINGLE Totalitarian society has said the exact same thing as you do........... OUR SOCIETY IS DIFFERENT<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>PARTICIPATION IS MANDATORY..............

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